Rebecca says: Good morning and welcome to our first Masterclass on engaging new audiences with arts & heritage. This has already generated a number of questions on both the broad issue of engagement and seeking practical solutions to challenges in the Our Place Forum. I am delighted to welcome Helen from Audiences London as our expert to respond. Welcome Helen.

Helen Ball says: Morning everyone and thanks for inviting me
I'm hoping you have lots of questions, I know we already have some.

Rebecca says: Lets start with a question from the Our Place Forum. Susannah asked: The way in which we engage communities can be patronising - 'we' take stuff to 'them' because we think 'they' should get something from it, or because 'they' need it. What do you think? How many examples are there of people taking control of that 'engagement'?

Helen Ball says: This is an interesting question and one that I've been thinking about a lot recently.

The idea that we patronise people by taking them a product that we think they will or even worse should enjoy is definitely something that the arts and heritage sectors can be guilty of.

Often this is done with the absolute best of intentions but can still end up having a negative effect. One person who writes really eloquently about this is a professor called Liz Richardson whose book DIY community is definitely one I would recommend. she talks about the need to 'start where people are at'
and I would agree with this.

Rebecca says: Welcome to all the people joining us just now, Do feel free to add your own thoughts

Helen Ball says: There's also some really exciting projects out in Chicago that have some interesting thoughts about this. I mentored someone doing a placement project last year who went to visit Chicago as part of her research trip into community engagement and some of the thinking she brought back really demonstrates this idea that to engage you need to really honour and understand the community before you get into offering a product

One way I demonstrate this in my work is to ask the groups I'm working with for their advice rather than assuming I know what they want.

Abigail says: I think part of this is about not trying to restructure how communities work but how to work with existing established networks then build from there. Reading your info about Chicago Helen - any write up or document you could point us towards later? Thanks!

Helen Ball says: And making sure that anything we do is co-designed to some extent. I know sometimes this isn't always possible - you may have inherited or been asked to deliver something fairly fixed but thinking through even small options that build in choices for the groups you're working with is part of your method

Bwood says: I have always found it useful to work with existing groups and networks as a first step

Helen Ball says: I completely agree - existing groups hold so much knowledge that excluding them is often really detrimental. Even if the work you're doing isn't a fit for an existing group you need their insight and advocacy to help you

Bwood says: it also means that you can build on existing relationships and partnerships

Helen Ball says: Susie will be presenting her Chicago research at an event in March so I will post up the info. And there's an info sheet too which I 'll add to the forum

Sally says: I’m at the stage of trying to find out who current audience is-i.e. visitor survey- any ideas of particular questions I could ask?

Helen Ball says: Hello Sally
We have a sample monitoring questionnaire on our website which will give you all the standard questions in a good format to ask. When it comes to asking more detailed questions I'd encourage you to think about - what you will do with this information. If it can't be acted on you should think about whether it’s the right question to ask

Helen Ball says: I'll post any links to documents I mention on the forum after this if that’s okay with you all

Abigail says: A wee tip is to have a short explanation about why certain questions are being asked - some people don't like having to categorise themselves especially if it feels 'personal' - but once they understand why we're asked people are often much more happy to give open answers.

Helen Ball says: Great point Abigail

Sally says: great thank you- the group I am working the management is elderly- although receptive to ideas-difficult to put across benefits of social networking via Internet

Helen Ball says: Ooh I'd be interested to know more about your group
I am doing a lot of work about older audiences and participants at the moment

Helen Ball says: The questionnaire I mentioned was part of research that we did working with the Equalities commission and a steering board of arts organisations and we found that people do not object to being asked for information so long as it's clear why you're asking. Often if you put a human face to this and introduce the survey in person the results will be much richer

Sally says: volunteer staff are very good at engaging- there is an existing survey on which they are mentioned a lot- but it didn’t ask where they heard of museum.

Helen Ball says: So by the sounds of things you need to have a look at whether your existing survey needs refining to be more useful - and if your volunteers are available they sound like the right way to engage people with a new survey

Helen Ball says: I don't know if you know that we did an event called Bolder and Wiser last year - you can access a free resource pack and watch films of the main presentations online. We had Sadler’s Wells, Brian Groombridge who was a founder member of the University of the Third Age and the director of the Baring Foundation who are funding work with older people over the next three year

Sally says: I’m keen to access any info- museum is very small and hardly any budget for publicity etc.- I want to help them raise funds

Helen Ball says: Budgets! I know how difficult it can be to make it all stretch particularly when you feel passionate about developing your organisation. I will post up the monitoring info on the forum and you can access that for free as a starting point.

Sally says: A lot of the volunteers are unemployed and have special needs also

Helen Ball says: Sally - might there be opportunities to get more funding to develop your volunteer staff if you're attracting such diverse volunteers?

Helen Ball says: Thinking back to Susannah's question - one tool that can be useful is partnership agreements to set the tone of how you are working - do any of you use these?

Visitor says: The challenge of partnership agreements is that you often make the agreement with the management and not with the participants! Therefore there is not always buy in where it matters

Helen Ball says: Hmmm I see your point with that. I would strive to set them up at a management level but also to contract in a recorded way (i.e. on paper - flip chart whatever is appropriate) with the actual participants to demonstrate that you are serious about working with them in a way that is cooperative and 2 way. Partnership agreements are used by a lot of the larger museums including National Portrait Gallery, and are definitely a great tool in the event of issues arising about responsibilities, and staff changing over but also for celebrating what you achieve together too - and simplifying your evaluation process.

Sally says: at the moment the partner contact is limited to other museums supported by the same local authority-mainly leaflets etc. These apparently keep their fundraising ideas close to their chest. A networking group that would be useful now requires payment (I’ve only been here a couple of months so still trying to access info).

Helen Ball says: Sally - if you have time I'd recommend you look at some of the projects on the Our Place site which you can download for free and discuss with colleagues. The Herbert Museum has some great examples of how they've built up different specific audiences, which might inspire some thinking about what could work for you?

Sally says: that’s a good point about partners- perhaps the agreement should be between friends groups! But it’s the management that knows about the funding

Helen Ball says: Exactly Sally! I don't think it matters what you call them - it's the act of setting out some ground rules together that's important.

Sally says: I found that trustees were nervous of facebook as they thought it would give people access to 'secret ' info about museum which I found surprising

Helen Ball says: There's a question coming up I think about social media so we can talk about that in a bit Sally

There are also free resources on our website ww.audienceslondon.org and the MLA has other examples that are all free - I know costs can be such an issue

Rebecca says: Hi Helen, could we move on to another topic, trying to get all those questions in.

Helen Ball says: Sure Rebecca lets move on

Rebecca says: This is one from Celine in the forum: I want to set up a youth panel to work with us to engage more young people at the heritage site where I work. What's the best way of going about this? Are there any tips for getting young people on board and keeping their interest alive? Should we offer incentives for taking part etc?

Helen Ball says: Youth forums are a really excellent way of working with young people longer term and in a meaningful way. There are some great examples and then there are some bad ones.

I think that when problems arise it's because the youth forum has been formed without a particularly clear remit and so the group quickly becomes tired

Georgie says: I'm interested in hearing from people who have worked with communities whose make-up is constantly shifting. I work for a theatre company in Wolverhampton and am interested in doing a project with a community in one part of town which is largely made up of asylum seekers. I'm someone who likes to do long projects, which develop over several months. With theatre, you're often working towards a sharable, live, end product. So the challenge is how to engage with a constantly changing community in a meaningful way, without excluding people who can't fully commit to a project due to not knowing about the length of time they'll be living there....

Abigail says: This depends on age, but the Young Archaeologist Clubs are very popular - they often have waiting lists. Contact the Council for British Archaeology or Archaeology Scotland for more information. You can run projects on the site; put on displays created by the kids... the list goes on. It is also active, rather than just chat and the kids can create the activities they want. Good way to reach out to other local groups and organisations.

Helen Ball says: often this can be because the youth forum becomes one person's remit and if young people are really going to be able to influence anything in an organisation there needs to be some agreement in the organisation about what power they have

Suzanne Carter says: I had a meeting with Changemakers who do 'V' inspired in Birmingham and they suggested that young people would be interested in volunteering opportunities where they were part of virtual youth forums - that means people can come and go, you don't have to host an event that attendance is low at, and young people can clock up their volunteer time by carrying out tasks or responding to questions on-line. Seems a bit faceless and impersonal to me...but if they work? Helen. Any experience of these?

Helen Ball says: I'm running a session about youth boards in June, I'll post up the info and they'll be some free resources on the website after the session. I'd also advise people to look at Participation Works for some free advice about setting up youth participation structures (google the name or let me know if you have any trouble finding them) they have some excellent free information

Rebecca says: Participation Works advertise their training days on Our Place, and we have a connection to their resources as well on the Our Place site.

Helen Ball says: Virtual youth forums... my experience is virtual is excellent for continuing relationships but can be trickier at starting them. Young people are obviously great users of online but the most successful sites are those set up by young people for their peers

Rebecca says: Sorry Georgie we will get back to your question on shifting communities in a moment

Sally says: Perhaps the theatre group could have a virtual result in this way- but I guess there is still a barrier for some with access

Helen Ball says: so if you wanted to do this testing it out as an idea with a small group of V volunteers would be a good idea (like a mini focus group) before starting anything. Ideally some of the young volunteers could then work with you to set up the forum and set the content.

Doing something quite clear would be my recommendation - as in asking a specific question to them each week./month which has a poll that you can show to everyone who logs in.

The issue with online forums is that they can look very out of date quickly if they're not updated all the time, because as we know the online world moves quickly.

There's also always the question of moderation with forums - different organisations have different views about this. Should they moderate the content or should it all be live? I think this isn't always necessarily a big issue in the end but it definitely needs decisions to be made before you start

Georgie says: OK, thanks! I'm hanging in there! Will have to leave at 11.45, though, so apologies if I appear not interested in people's responses! Will I have access to this after the debate is over?

Rebecca says: Yes, we will keep a record of the discussion available on line.

Helen Ball says: We're working with 12 theatres offering free tickets as part of the night less ordinary scheme (do you know it?) and we've found that asking young people targeted questions through questionnaires sent to their email addresses quite successful and more so than a general forum

Vey Straker says: I found some live msn chat with a group of young people was very effective for gathering some evidence of need about a media project that we are now running. They seemed really free and eloquent in expressing themselves on-line

Helen Ball says: Hello Georgie! Lets get to your question at least before you go.
It sounds like in your situation that flexibility is key!

Rebecca says: Georgie's Question again: I'm interested in hearing from people who have worked with communities whose make-up is constantly shifting. I work for a theatre company in Wolverhampton and am interested in doing a project with a community in one part of town which is largely made up of asylum seekers. I'm someone who likes to do long projects, which develop over several months. With theatre, you're often working towards a sharable, live, end product. So the challenge is how to engage with a constantly changing community in a meaningful way, without excluding people who can't fully commit to a project due to not knowing about the length of time they'll be living there.

Helen says: Something practically that you could do is make sure that the sessions you run exist as stand alone pieces so that people who can only come to one benefit. I appreciate this is difficult but it could become a feature of the project - 5 minute theatre; create a slice of theatre each session that kind of thing

Sally says: perhaps they could have something to take away with them to show they participated

Georgie says: That's a nice idea, 5 min theatre - and maybe where we left off last time could be the stimulus starting point for the next session...we could film each short piece for the next participants to watch at the opening of the next session...

Helen Ball says: I would also try and raise awareness through partner organisations and local press that this is the setting you're working in. If you can come up with a model that works it could become your unique selling point for your work and could lead to higher level partnership with asylum seeker charities

Rebecca says: The National Trust worked with a Roma Community at The Workhouse in Southall as part of The Untold Story Project. The performance included lots of recorded stories, so that they did not have to regularly attend to get the stories. Becca Connock - an Our Place member would have more info about it

Helen Ball: A project I volunteered with in New York springs to mind - it was called Free Arts. And one of the services they ran was to provide arts in judicial court waiting rooms and places like that.

So essentially they created a unique offer to help children deal with stressful situations. Maybe there could be elements of that thinking in how you work - what do you think? A

Abigail says: Strikes me that very good project planning would help - identifying clear tasks and being able to explain or show how it contributes to the whole. Multi-media could feature - projections on to stage; creating a work that comes from short pieces; set designs developed and created by your groups... off the top of my head.

Helen Ball says: Have just read your idea about watching back and that's great as it will allow those that do come back to build up confidence and their experience and will encourage them to come back too.

Vey Straker says: Georgie's suggestion reminds me of Forum theatre - where the next group could react to or change the outcome of the previous groups piece

Helen Ball says: Forum theatre would be a really interesting avenue to explore too. Oval House and Tricycle Theatre both in London have strong track records in working with these groups. They could be worth talking to and sharing ideas with even just on the phone - do people have others they can suggest?

Rebecca says: Do you know where people could get more information about the ideas behind forum theatre if they haven’t come across it before.

Helen Ball says: They'll be a lot of info online about it - Cardboard Citizens who work with homeless men and women have great examples if you wanted to see some in action

Sally says: Project planning as mentioned by Abigail is so essential but not always recognised by those involved

Helen Ball says: Project planning always key I agree. I'm a big fan of a one page project plan that articulates what you're trying to do, how you'll know if you've been successful, timescales and who is responsible. This can then be the document to use to plan your evaluation too.

Vey Straker says: We're about to start a project to raise awareness about older people in rural isolation. Participants will be older people to create content and the ultimate audience will be middle aged upwards. Any good examples come to mind of effective branding or good websites that say 'older people' and would be attractive to them - but not exclusively?

Helen Ball says: Interesting project Vey - I'd be keen to know more about it. If I were you I'd ask a small group of older people to identify some trusted brands - either that they know off or on-line. As it would be good to compare if they're the same. There's currently lots of questions about the extent to which older people trust online so it would be a timely thing to ask people about

In terms of existing websites - SAGA magazine might be a good source of research, plus it's a good magazine - I always read my Mum's!

Vey Straker says: Yes - SAGA, good idea. Helen - check out http://www.ruralmedia.co.uk/index.php?nav_id_sent=0--AMPER_SAND--page_id_sent=145 if you would like a little more info on our new older people's project

Thanks Vey I will do! Am v interested at finding out about any work happening with older people so lets all keep posting up examples on Our Place.

Georgie says: You've all been really helpful Thank you. Wish I could stay...

Helen ball says: It's been lovely talking to you Georgie - hope the rest of your day isn't too busy!

Helen Ball says: What I'd try and do is build up a picture (visually might be good, use magazine cuttings etc) to start to identify what makes a trusted source of information. i.e. what is it about M&S that people like? I'm assuming M & S might be in there; of course you'd need to check...!

Abigail says: That is an interesting one. The contradiction is that while younger people are more confident users of social networking they are too trustful and share too much with the world, while older people are perhaps wisely more critical of the information. /. /shared and sharable but less confident and perhaps missing out.

Helen Ball says: Yes, and there's a lot of contradictory information about how people over 55 engage online.

Abigail says: Google 'Adult social media use hits new highs' for some stats on http://www.lostremote.com" www.lostremote.com

Helen Ball says: Thanks for the tip Abigail - will have a look

Rebecca says: Could we move onto another question from the Forum, and maybe tie it in with Sally's comment earlier about management trusting facebook etc. From Penny: I would like to ask Helen if she has any thoughts about effective ways to use social media to engage younger people.

Helen Ball says: We're doing some research about this at the moment.... and now a good time to move on to the social media question

Helen Ball says: 2 of the best online engagement campaigns I've come across recently started on you tube.

One was the You Tube Symphony, which London symphony orchestra was part of and the other was Dance Mob, which was part of South Bank Centre's work around dance. They both took a similar format - building up interest online

The first called for people to film themselves playing classical music parts and upload to you tube. From that a virtual orchestra was born and musicians from all over the world flew to perform together in New York at Carnegie Hall
And the Dance Mob was about people learning a dance routine online via a You Tube film and then coming together (over 1000 people, a lot of them young) to perform together outside at the South Bank last summer.

What these campaigns both did was to generate whispers and interests online as a way to generate an audience/participants. I think this is really smart. Another example is the Roundhouse's Turning Point Festival, which happened last May for the first time and was led by young people.

They utilised a lot of social media routes - again I think their success was down to the online stuff being created by young people

Sally says: you are right about young people tending to. /. /share too much- and they certainly talk a different language

Rebecca says: So are these examples where the community is created on-line before the event?

Helen Ball says: Yes exactly that Rebecca

Helen says: So for example if you're going to set up a myspace it might be better to do it specifically about the event rather than having one for your organisation. Young people particularly are attracted to events and being social

Sally says: Would you have any ideas about how to encourage older management groups to pass over the reins i.e. gradual transfer of information/ responsibility?

Helen Ball says: Often social media methods bring up questions for organisations about how much control they're willing to let go of

These days it's all about being open online and letting people give their opinions freely. As you're probably aware big companies do designate staff to trawl the Internet particularly sites like Twitter to make sure they respond to any negative feedback and show they are listening

Sally says: I’d guess they are fairly nervous of it but larger museums make so much use of it and they don’t need it as much.

Helen says: While I wouldn't suggest this extreme or have time to do it! The principle about being open and listening applies to the arts just as much. One simple and free thing you can do is set a google alert up to see where your organisation is coming up online. That's good to track your marketing too.

Sally - when it comes to transferring responsibility, I'd encourage you to break down what needs to happen into more manageable chunks. It's important to have quick wins to keep morale up and so people understand their own roles

Abigail says: At some point can I ask whether people think the London Olympics 2012 / Cultural Olympiad / Glasgow Commonwealth Games 2014 will offer opportunities to draw in new communities? And how?

Hi Abigail.... The Olympics question, thanks for asking it.

Susan says: I've recently learnt that if someone completes 100 hours community voluntary service, then they will be higher on the choice of volunteers that will be recruited for the Olympics? Have you heard of this, as Volunteers I work with are keen to pursue?

Helen Ball says: we did an event last year called 'More than a one night stand' (!) which was around this issue about who do arts and heritage organisations make the most of the fact that there will be new audiences who get engaged with the Olympics and other large scale events

I'll put the link to the resource in here. We had Craig Hassell, creative programmer for the Sydney Olympics come along and speak and he spoke in a really down to earth way about how the Olympics is massively exciting but a hugely busy time. So Abigail I think that communities can get forgotten if we're not careful.

I think the opportunity is that the mood in a country or city changes while there is a large event on and if we can get our timings right we can make the most of that mood and engage new people with our work

Alas there is a lack of direct funding to do this but if we can make links ourselves with enough of a lead-in time I think the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games bring in possibilities for new ways of working and new visibility for our work

Helen says: Hi Susan. I'm not sure about the specific hour requirements. I', on a free email list for people interested in volunteering in the Olympic which anyone can join. They send regular updates about what will be happening - I've not read anything on here about 100 hours but your local volunteer centre should know for sure

Sally says: Is there likely to be potential for cities outside of London?

Helen Ball says: There are things happening all over the country and some of the sports themselves are due to be played outside of London - Newcastle is one area I know for sure. There's some arts council projects linked to the Olympiad that have happened in different parts of the country including Liverpool

Of course some people like this more than others, and feel that too much emphasis is on London. I'm not really enough in the know about exactly what's happening everywhere to really be able to comment.

John Vincent says: I agree with Helen's point about catching the mood of the country/city, and would also say that, for community engagement with 'new' communities to be really successful, it's got to be long-term, so we need to make sure that people don't think we're part of some Olympics "flash-in-the-pan"!!

Helen Ball says: John I couldn't agree with you more - it's about seeing a benefit for your work in the Olympics rather than seeing it as the sole reason to act. And no community will be fooled by you if you're not in it for the longer term.

Sally says: could you say more about how we would we get access to potential funding?

Helen says: As I understand it there are no specific funding pots from the Olympic Organising Committee so it's about looking at the funders locally and nationally that your work can apply for as per usual! Luckily I'm sure you are all very good at this because you have to do it regularly

It's also good to speak to your local arts officer at the council to see if there are any specific initiatives or events planned that you can work with or be a part of. And also your regional English Heritage officers and we have audience development offices in each region too that might be able to advise you.

Sally says: the usual suspects then!

Helen Ball says: Afraid so Sally!

Rebecca says: Can we squeeze in one last question from the Forum.

Helen Ball says: Plus any final questions from any of you of course!

Rebecca says: From Michael What's Helen's advice on community ambassadors and using community members as advocates for getting other people in the community interested in a heritage site?

Helen Ball says: I have been involved with a number of ambassadors schemes and do think they are an excellent way of enabling word of mouth support for your work.

Abigail says: Business uses this technique a lot - identifying the key people within certain networks then seeking to influence them. Works with marketing in particular but could be applied to all kinds of things.

Helen Ball says: Thanks Abigail -.
This is really powerful - we know from our work that the most powerful way to encourage a person to go and see or try something is if someone they know recommends it. So the ambassador’s method builds on this thinking.

Dipot says: How do you become a local ambassador?

Hi Dipot. Different organisations have ambassador’s schemes. Which area are you based in and we'll see if anyone knows any local to you

Dipot says: North Manchester

Helen Ball says: Anyone got any North Manchester examples?

Sally says: I have a general question, which is probably a bit wide ranging. Our museum is small with no meeting room or other space to use for fundraising. I’ve thought of getting partners, get sponsor spaces but creating a virtual space would be a good way-any other thoughts?

Helen says: My starting advice would be to define what your ambassador scheme is for. Is it about selling tickets or is it about getting to know a new audience - i.e. if you're looking to appeal to more bme groups and you're currently under represented in this population, am ambassadors scheme targeting bme groups could help you to make a change. This second kind is generally going to be more about audience development and making changes in your organisation from what you find out, rather than just selling tickets.

Helen Ball says: I used to work in Salford and there is a very strong community led festival in a very rural area called Irlam. The organisers act as Ambassadors locally and bring in audiences of over 5000.
Can you utilise someone else’s space for something in kind? Make use of an outdoor meeting room in summer too - often very inspiring, our team do this sometimes when we're action planning

Rebecca says: I am sorry but we are going to have to wrap up this discussion. Please feel free to post any further thoughts, in the Our Place Forum. Helen has kindly said she will add any links to resources she mentioned in there as well.

So finally can I thank everyone for being involved today, and ask Helen - quick yes or no, "In a tight economic climate will engaging new communities be seen as less of a priority and more of a luxury?

Helen Ball says: I think yes. But we need to fight against this otherwise the work we do will regress

John Vincent says: Working with community members who value your service and, therefore, are keen to help promote it is a great way of engaging people - and getting the word out about what you do. The next stage could be then involving them - maybe as volunteers - to begin to be a link for these communities from within your service. Leicester Libraries did this brilliantly with refugees, and Slough Museum with engaging a wider range of volunteers ...

Dipot says: Okay so how do you find them? Through English Heritage?

Helen Ball says: Hi Dipot I can put you in touch. Will post a message to your member space on Our Place

Rebecca says: Thank you all for your time today, any further discussion can take place in the forum.

Helen Ball says: Thanks everyone - was lovely talking to you

Sally says: Thank you

Helen Ball says: I hope so! Was fun although tested my typing skills.

Rebecca says: A big thank you to Helen from Audiences London for her really helpful Masterclass

Goodbye